Public Opinion Poll

[ladysprite]

For a little while now my sweetie and I have been bouncing around the idea of getting a second car. It's really a necessity at this point; with me working at various random places around the state it's extremely difficult to drive him to and from work every day, and public transportation for him is an expensive hassle.

We've been kind of assuming we'd get a used car, just to save money, but I'm realizing that that's actually somewhat of a hassle. Neither of us is much of a car guru, and in spite of the help of extremely knowledgeable friends, I've had enough bad experiences that I'd never quite completely trust anything particularly old. So this put us looking for a fairly high-end, gently used car with no known vehicle-health issues.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that it would probably be more efficient, overall, to get a second new car. The car I currently drive is, in fact, a fairly high-end, gently used car with no known health issues. If we bought another used car, odds are we'd need to replace one car or the other within a few years. On the other hand, if we get a new car now, the car I currently use can become my sweetie's, and there would hopefully be no need to buy any more vehicles for at least a while. Part of me feels like I'm being overly extravagant and spendthrifty, but another part realizes that, if we can afford the payments, this may be the most reasonable way to go.

The other reason the new-car concept has so much appeal is that I'm thinking of buying a gas-electric hybrid. With all of the driving I do, and with the ludicrous gas prices, it seems a lot more efficient to have a car that gets much better mileage. However, I also know that my knowledge of cars is not merely woefully lacking, but functionally utterly absent, and I don't want to hop into something like this without a lot more information.

So - does anyone out there reading this own a hybrid car, or know someone who does, or at least have a strong opinion about them one way or the other? And if so, would you be willing to share any info or opinions with me?

Comments

[tpau]

i do not own a hybrid car. i did testdrive a few when i was buying my new one. the main problem i saw was that they turn off at stoplights, to save energy. this is great, except it turns off your AC, your music, and your lights...
the benefit is of course the gas-saving. also a tax break which i think you cna still get. however, they are not cheap.

honestly, if you asked my oppinion, which iwill give you regardless, as you know, i'd get a Hyundai if i were you (and it was my first car, which i loved). They are econo cars, they are exceptional at having great gas-milage, and they are under 10K. you can not find a cheaper car that doesn't suck... (i had a hyundai accent '99. it ran liek a wonder, and i only don't have it because SOMEONE drove it intoa pickup...)

[sdorn.livejournal.com]

While I am skeptical about buying hybrids (see my comment to ladysprite elsewhere), it's not true that the cars turn off at stoplights, or at least the Prius I test-drove didn't. The gas engine stops running, but the car's still operating (and the a/c test I did showed that).

[tpau]

hmm.. which prius did you try? i was tryign the 05 prius and the 05 civic and they both turned off pretty completly.

i did find that the civic's lights and charging sliders and such were really nifty looking. a bit liek driving a video game. wicked cool... but in the end, i wen t for hte 60 cubic feet of storage space and got a forester.... :)

[sdorn.livejournal.com]

The 02 Prius. I'm quite surprised at that—unless you have a set of 100W speakers, the stereo system doesn't really draw much from the battery.

[ian-gunn.livejournal.com]

I have an '05 prius and it operates as sdorn says. When the gasoline engine turns off the car continues to operate fully using the batteries and alternator/generator. I've never experienced a loss of AC lights or radio when that happens.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I rent Priuses (?) from Zipcar all the time, and all those things NEVER stop at stoplights. The A/C, the music, the lights - it all stays on. I'm kind of curious what kind of car you test drove!

That being said, the Prius is my favorite car to rent from Zipcar, and I will go out of my way to get one.

[z-gryphon.livejournal.com]

You're tiny enough that a hybrid would probably work for you. Me, I'd need one for each foot.

Apart from that, I have little to offer; I have no interest in the things, so I haven't been keeping up with their development since the highly deficient original models hit the open market a few years ago.

[tpau]

oh yes, alex had problems sittingin the civic hybrid and the prius hybrid, as both were a bit short for him and a bit cramped. also the civic has lamost no trunk space. the prius is a bit better. i have not heard much about hte accord hybrid but this si it 's first year so i would nto recomend it yet... the civi and the prius are really the only two that are established enough to warrant beign called reliable...

[ladysprite.livejournal.com]

Apropos of nothing, I did just want to let you know that there's a piece of stationery that has been following me around for a couple of months now, trying to be turned into a letter to you, but circumstances and the fact that I'm a big loser keep conspiring against me....

[pamelina.livejournal.com]

Actually the Prius has excellent room for large people up front. My 6'3" ex fit quite comfortably in the front seat for comfortable driving; we checked specifically.

cvirtue's sister owns a Prius. She loves it. It's a great geek toy, as well as being roomy and economical.

[mrpsyklops.livejournal.com]

curiousmay9 owns a hybrid and is very taken with it. I've ridden in it with her (5'10", 210 lbs) and I did not find it cramped. Their highway acceleration for passing is astonishingly good.

You may wish to contact her directly for a personal review.

[mrpsyklops.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. That is, I'm 5'10", 210 lbs....

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Everything I've read says that the hybrid cars are a luxury item - the payback time is impossible. It is not an economic choice, it is a social statement.

A very good used car is just as reliable (for a commuter car) as a new one, and far more economical as well. If it is just one or two years old, you can even get a "used car loan" (at banks such as my credit union, DCU (http://www.dcu.org) or others), and sometimes even a warrantee.

Of course, I am not talking about what you want here, or the fun and satisfaction of owning a car, or any real intangibles. Just being cheap.

[ladysprite.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I don't really know what I want - I don't have enough information to make an informed decision about that yet. That's why I'm asking here for information from people with a better, or at least larger, background than I have.

It's not about fun and satisfaction; I get about as much fun and satisfaction from owning a car as I do a toothbrush. It's a necessity for my life as I lead it, nothing more or less.

It's about transportation, efficiency, cost, function.... car stuff, I guess, and I do appreciate your input - part of what I was wondering was whether it would be more cost efficient, and it seems from what you're saying that it's not. That's good to know; thank you.

[new-man.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting assertion ("hybrid cars are a luxury item"). I mean, all cars are a luxury item to a certain extent, and I haven't seen anything that points to hybrids having more maintainance issues or bring significantly more expensive than other cars (according to today's Globe, a 2005 Toyota Prius is $19,000; a 2005 Saturn L is slightly more). And, of course, you're paying about 60% as much for gasoline.

Alaric has had a Prius for about 2 years now. He likes it very much and, except for routine maintainance, has not had to take it in for repairs.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

It is an interesting assertion. What I was trying to say (in an eclipsed mode - like I said, I have a headache) is that if the car is not economically superior (because the cost of manufacture and ownership are not repaid by the lowered gasoline consumption), then owning a hybrid is not done for purely economic reasons. Yet, they are popular... I suggest that any car which is less economical but which is popular is purchased for aesthetic or cultural values, and that is a luxury decision.

A base Civic is 2/3 the price of a hybrid Civic (a $6,000 dollar difference). A base Accord is a little more than half the cost of a hybrid Accord. A Prius is near 21,000 dollars, and while the Saturn L is a very NICE car, the Prius is a lot like a Dodge Neon - a 14,000 car at base model. (I'd buy the Saturn over the Neon, any day, especially if money were not an object.) The Ford Escape difference is around 7 grand.

(Ignore for the moment that you can negotiate on price for a conventional vehicle, but sometimes have to pay a premium to purchase a hybrid vehicle... because of waiting lists and all.)

Call the price difference, on average, 6 grand. That is (at $3 a gallon), 2,000 gallons of gas. At $2 a gallon, 3,000. Pessimistically, that's 60,000 miles of travel (at the high price, and with the Neon's worst MPG). Optimistically that is more like 100,000 miles. Or somewhere in the middle. If you look at the Accord, the situation is even more extreme, and against your thesis. Payback on the price of gasoline alone is a very long term affair.

Hybrid vehicles have expensive batteries, which become less efficient over time, are an environmental hazard to dispose of, and which might need to be replaced over the long haul of the cars lifetime. (Presuming that one wants to keep the car for a long time, which was implied in the original posting.)

Will they have to be replaced at 5 years? 8 years? No one knows. But I've read some interestig speculative articles that talk about car batteries that suggest they might - or that in the alternative you have a car that becomes sharply less efficient.

(And the car becomes much less efficient when one does things like use the A/C...)

And, as a software engineer who professionally deals with complexity and the statistics and risks thereof - if you have two systems (electrical and gasoline), you will break down at the level of reliability of the worst of the two systems, and that the chance of a failure goes up the more systems and parts you have.

Lastly - if you don't keep the gasoline system in better tune that I think most people do, it will not shut off and instantly start as efficiently as promised. And a hybrid whose gas engine is "hard starting" is not as useful a car.

Two years is not that interesting a time period. Most cars fail to need more than ordinary maintenance during their warrantee periods - that is, in fact, how and why manufacturers can afford to offer warrantees.

(Consumer Reports has done many reviews of the value of a warrantee or an extended warrantee for most products, and they are simply not economic. A recent article in The New Yorker (if I recall), pointed out that Circuit City makes more money off extended warrantee sales than off of the products they actually sell....)

In the end, I am not at all certain that a hybrid represents value for money. I believe it represents a great unknown in long term costs and efficiencies, and an almost certainly greater cost in maintenance of two systems instead of one.

I wouldn't buy one at this time - it is a form of luxury and mechanical experiment that I wouldn't make. Of course, I have written a great many suppositions above, as well as value judgments. I'd be interested in seeing the suppositions picked apart, or value judgments identified.

[new-man.livejournal.com]

You've clearly done more research on thios than I have. I pikced the Saturn L series because I own an SL2. I picked the Prius because Alaric owns one, so I'm pretty familiar with them (well, at least one). I think the current "L" series may be more luxurious than the past ones.

Ignoring the hybrid quality, it'd be a toss-up for me as to which one I'd pick as a car (SL2 vs Prius). I don't consider the SL2 to be significantly more luxurious than the Prius.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Oh, by the way, I looked up the prices on cars.com as I wrote the reply above.

[lensman.livejournal.com]

I don't think all of the numbers add up completely correctly there. From a quick look at the cars.com page it looks like you were comparing Base cost of the non hybrid's to the hybrid pakages. Cars.com places the additional cost around $3500 average (http://www.cars.com/go/crp/buyingGuides/Story.jsp?section=Hybrid&story=HybridPrice&subject=stories&referer=&year=New), which is close to the difference I saw between my hybrid and the comparable gas only.

As to battery replacement costs. I think you have a valid point, and are completely correct that long term data just doesn't exist yet, but I see the cost comming down and that's being driven by factors beyond just the cars. Also I think when they'll need to be replaced will depend on the type of batery system used, and in come cases they may even be able to swap them out for upgraded battery systems in the future.

As for keeping the car tuned up... I've had mine long enough now that I'm comming up on my second 3000 mile tune up. The first only took an hour and cost $30. This included the oil change...

Cars.com has a special Hybrid section. (http://www.cars.com/go/crp/buyingGuides/Story.jsp?section=Hybrid&story=HybridTechnology&subject=stories&referer=&year=New)

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Because I was making an economic argument, I did choose the cheapest car of each type. It is possible to choose by "comparable packaging", and you are right: the difference in price drops somewhat.

But comparable trim levels are, to some degree, a luxury, and the fact that hybrids are bundled with luxury features works somewhat toward my argument that purchasing one is a luxury choice...

In any case, I re-posted with my source, so people could look at the figures. :-) Plus, of course, there is still the "room to negotiate the price" point I made.

The cost of a simple tune-up at the 3,000 mile point is so low, it's not even a question. But most folks, I wager, don't tune-up their cars religiously. Many don't even change the oil often enough.

[oakleaf-mirror.livejournal.com]

It is not an economic choice, it is a social statement.

While I agree with this, I think in this context it's also like stating the sky is sometimes blue during the day. At least in this country, every car (or absence of car, for those that have arranged not to need one) is a social statement, to some extent. There's far more variety on the market than simple utility would require, and the spread of prices doesn't always correlate with utility. In that sense, much of the price of a car (new, or used) is tied to intangibles.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

You are, to some degree, correct. The engineer-gene in me can scoff at being able to choose color... I once bought a car with instructions of "any color except white or black"...

But in this case the car purchase would be more expensive for features that are not economically justified. That's even more of a social statement than anything else, I'd wager.

[oakleaf-mirror.livejournal.com]

But in this case the car purchase would be more expensive for features that are not economically justified.

In the full size sedan market, a BMW 745 goes for ~$70,000, while a Chevrolet Impala goes for ~$25,000. Sure, the BMW has a few nifty features the Chevy doesn't, I'd wager, but $45,000 worth? I don't think so. In just about every market segment, you can find similar spreads (and those aren't even the most extreme). Yes, most hybrid cars have some 'social statement' cost to them, but compared to other examples, I don't think it's that much of a premium, particularly when it is offset by some economical utility (which will vary based on actual future gas costs).

[sdorn.livejournal.com]

I test-drove a hybrid before we bought our current car a few years ago and decided to stick with the standard system for a few reasons, some of which will apply to you and at least one won't:

• Hybrids cost a lot more than comparable models with a standard combustion engine, something like $8,000 more. You can buy more than 3,000 gallons of gas with $8,000.
  
• The car we eventually ended up with (a 2003 Corolla) had decent mileage to begin with (about 33 mpg highway). (So, assuming we really average 29-30 mpg, the cost differential would pay for about 90,000 miles' worth of gas.)
  
• When I turned on the a/c on a warm but not hot Florida day, the mileage on the hybrid I drove (a Prius) plummeted from 45 mpg to 31 mpg. In other words, a hybrid presented no real advantage for much of the year here. (This is the reason that wouldn't apply to your situation. But the equivalent may apply if a heater also makes the hybrid less efficient, which it inevitably would.)

Incidentally, we're very happy with our two-year-old Corolla. The 2003 model had much better crash-test results than the prior Corolla, and I hope that's kept up. It was our first brand-new car purchase.

[new-man.livejournal.com]

Hybrids cost a lot more than comparable models with a standard combustion engine, something like $8,000 more. You can buy more than 3,000 gallons of gas with $8,000.

See above, but that's just not true -- at least, not nay more, and not around here. THe cost of hybrids seems to have come down significantly.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

You might want to look at my reply to New Man. I researched it just now on Cars.com

[griffinick.livejournal.com]

I had been thinking about the Prius, but also ended up with a 2003 Corolla last year, which I love. I paid about $13,000 for it very gently used (one of those certified used Toyotas), and have found it gets, on average, about 35-38 mpg.
I'm certainly one who likes the "environmentally-responsible" aspect of the hybrids, but they were all pretty much out of my budget, even if I considered the longer term benefits of less fuel usage.
I guess the biggest question, ladysprite, is whether economics are going to decide things for you.

[lensman.livejournal.com]

I have a Ford escapehybrid, and I have to say I am a VERY happy owner...

I bought it at the end of Febuary. It cost about $4000 more than the regular Ford Escape. ($28,000 total)
It's getting about 25 MPG and has a 15 Gal tank. It is rated at 28MPG city. It's costing me about $26-$30 every two weeks. For my average commute from Arlington to MIT. Plus I drive around campus usually once a day.
Compared to my last car which was costing me about $25-$28 / week (Ford Explorer, getting between 12-15 MPG) At this rate It should pay for itself over the corse of the car's life. Though as I have been taking a couple of longer trips the milage is getting better. (Both as I get used to driving it and it's breaking in.)

Now I choose the Escape because I wanted an SUV. I haul enough junk around on a near weekly basis that I felt I needed the extra room. Plus I'm a big guy (6' 250lbs) and I just don't feel as comfortable driving smaller cars.
I choose a hybrid even though they are mor expensive, because I wanted to "vote with my dollars", as well as keep the operational costs down.

I find that it drives really well, there are certain things to keep in mind when driving Hybrids. It does take a little getting used to the fact that the gas engine shuts off after about 5 minutes of "warm up / battery charge" time. It will run on electric under about 30 MPH, or faster if you are coasting downhill lightly on the brakes. The AC compressor and defrost both NEED the gas engine to function. The AC will continue to function in an "energy saver" mood without the gas, but in this heat that lasts about 2-3 minutes before you are ready for more cold... (you can manually switch the gas engine on at that point if you want.) I also notice the 1/2 second hessetation when calling for more power than the electric engine can provide. Usually at points when I'm going uphill, entering a highway, or jumping off a stop light...

I've heard the [Unknown site tag] gets in the 50MPG range...

[lensman.livejournal.com]

I've heard the toyota_prius (http://www.livejournal.com/community/toyota_prius/) gets in the 50MPG range...

[lensman.livejournal.com]

Oh and more manufacturer's are comming out with hybrids. The Escape was the first SUV hybrid to market. Lincoln, Lexus and Toyota are bringing SUV hybrids in the next modle year. On the sedan side I haven't kept up but I know honda has two different models. I good site to start researching is www.greenhybrid.com (http://www.greenhybrid.com/). Hope this helps.

[vettecat.livejournal.com]

It's really a question of your financial situation. If you can afford a new car, then it might make sense b/c as you say it'll last longer. If that'll be too much of a stretch for you, and your hesitation about buying used is not knowing if it's healthy, I can recommend a good mechanic to check it out.

[ckd]

Not owning a car, but having a Zipcar membership, means that I've had the chance to drive the Prius and Civic Hybrid as well as several more traditional cars. My officemate has a Civic Hybrid, which he likes very much.

You lose a lot of trunk space to the batteries in any hybrid car.

[pixel.livejournal.com]

"Last time I saw the numbers run hybrid cars did not save enough $$ in gas to offset the added cost. You can purchase new non-hybrid cars that get very impressive gas mileage for much less money.
An example, this site lists the fuel economy of various cars. The Honda Civic Hybrid (manual trans) gets 45mpg city/51mpg highway, ranked three cars below it on the scale is the regular civic (manual trans) at 36mpg city/44mpg highway. If you do the math, comparing the city mileage (which is where hybrids shine and what the car would largely do in your hands I'm guessing) at 15,000miles per year (national average) and $2.35/gallon (what I saw in Cambridge earlier today) the total fuel savings per year comes out at under $200 ($783 for the hybrid vs $979 for the regular). According to Edmunds.com the base price for a hybrid Civic 4-dr (maunal) is $19,900, while the base price for the regular Civic 4-dr (manual) is $13,260 to $17,510 depending on trim level. That means even if you went for the high-end EX trim level it would take about twelve years for the fuel savings to pay for the price difference.

I would strongly suggest against buying a brand new car. A brand new car loses at *least* $1000 in value the minute you drive it off the dealer's lot, and then depreciates very rapidly for the first couple years after that.
I would agree with your earlier plan to look at buying a couple-year-old used car. You will get the best price buying privately. However a lot of new car dealers now offer loans and warrentees on their used cars (so many ppl buying new cars they are trying to unload the large numbers of trade-ins & off-lease cars).
I know time is tight with you both, but you may want to take an afternoon or saturday off and poke around the local car dealerships. Browse the used car section and see what is out there. Talk to a salesperson and see what they want for stuff. I'd make it very clear that you're looking for a 2nd around town car to supplement your regular car. This will depend on your impression of the salesperson, but you might want to ask them flat out what is popular right now (so you know what cars are going to therefore fetch a higher premium), and possibly even ask if they have anything on the lot they've been having trouble moving (in a 'you do me a favor in the price and I'll do you a favor by getting it out of your inventory' sort of way).
One big advantage of the used car lot at new car dealers is that they have a (overall) higher quality of cars. When they get trade-ins of off-lease cars, they send to auction the older ones, or higher mileage, or damaged, or problem-filled, etc. They don't want to deal with those, they only want cars that are likely to have a fast turnaround. The trade-off is that the higher quality of car will fetch a slightly higher price."

P.S. sorry for the length, was feeling verbose.

[umbran.livejournal.com]

Don't apologize for being verbose when you're giving good advice :)

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

You know what I'd love to have?

A 5 year old diesel. 5 years old, so it's off warranty, and cheap enough that I feel like I can gamble. Then I'd get the conversion kit to let it run on vegetable oil.

It doesn't mean you put vegetable oil in the main tank; you need regular diesel in the main tank, because until the engine is hot enough, vegetable oil won't work. But, you have a secondary tank, and a button to start using it, once the engine heats up.

Restaurants have to pay to have cooking oil hauled away. They'll give you oil for free. You run it through a large coffee filter, and pour it into your secondary tank, and voila, you have a frenchfrymobile!

However, the conversion voids the warranty, and unless you have a good mechanic, things could go wrong, and if you're like me, you might keep forgetting to check with the restaurants until they've already thrown their oil away, etc.. Still, right now, it's my dream car, and diesel is more efficient than gas, so it has good mileage, used McD grease or diesel.

So, none of this means anything to you, but it still gives me a chance to talk about one of my ittybitty dreams.

[griffinick.livejournal.com]

I've been hearing a ton about biodiesel recently...is it as efficient as gas/electric hybrid?

[jtdiii.livejournal.com]

It is no where near as efficient. Most biodiesels are still in the mid twenties in miles per gallon.

Since you are burning used fry oil most of the time, which is free most people are not all that worried about the efficient. Note that here in New England you can really only use this 3/4 of the year, as in the winter the fry oil congeals into a solid mass. Still it can save you a remarkable amount. Note that in the -20F range you need to start running kerosene, as diesel starts to gell.

There are some amazing diesels coming out in the near future though with up to 70mpg... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8129979/

[jtdiii.livejournal.com]

The Mercedes diesels are an excellent choice for this project. I bought my 1980 300D at 100,000 miles and it was still running well at 13 years old with 240,000 miles when it was eaten by a jacked up Ford Bronco. They are long out of warranty, and run forever, with at least one model in the mid west having gone over a million miles.

If it is already out of warranty, there is nothing to void, and since they last so long you know that you can recoup your expenditures. The only drawback is that maintenance is higher than for domestic. The 1980's had brake pad that had to be replaced every 20,000 miles and wheel bearings every 60,000. Still by buying used you can research what commonly fails on the model you are looking at, to plan your expenses.

In NE rust will eventuall destroy them though. :(

[sdorn.livejournal.com]

I've occasionally read about these, and apart from the smell of someone else's fries, it sounds great!

[keshwyn]

I've ridden around in an older Prius and it was a nice car, but I haven't actually driven one myself, and I don't know how much better (for me) one would be. The car I was riding in belonged to our buyer's broker, and she drove pretty much constantly - but not away from the city - so for her it was a wise choice.

The main issue that I've heard with hybrids is that because they are -so- complicated under the hood, you pretty much have to take them back to the dealership to get service. If you're in the middle of, say, New Jersey on your way to a Con, and the car breaks down, you have a problem. This is the main reason my mother (who lives in Washington state and drives to Utah occasionally) is not getting a hybrid. I don't know how much of an issue this would be for the pair of you.

I have a Honda Civic LX stickshift and I'm regularly getting 40 mpg, so while the savings in emissions with a hybrid would be nice, I'm not sure it would offset the additional cost. I got mine at the end of model year (around this time, two years ago) and I followed the Foolish Guide to Buying a Car and ended up paying for it what I had paid for my four-years-old used Subaru wagon three years earlier, and I've been very happy with it ever since. (Well, aside from it not being a hatchback.)

Good luck!

[ninjarat.livejournal.com]

Manuals generally get much better mileage than automatics, on the order of 25% better, and they usually cost less than automatics, roughly $800-$1200 less depending on the car. Add a high performance air filter like a K&N Filtercharger (cost about $50 including the cleaning kit) and you can increase the mileage by another 5-10% (and reduce waste because they are reusable).

Hybrids are city commuter vehicles. Much of their efficiency comes from regenerative braking dumping charge back into the batteries. Their actual performance drops if most of your driving is highway driving. YMMV -- literally :).

Personally, I do not see depreciation as a reason to go used instead of new. A used car will depreciate just as much as a new one. Sure, you'll save a few thousand dollars on the purchase price. For that savings you will have critical questions that probably cannot be answered: did the previous owner keep up with the maintenance schedule? Did he use premium parts and consumables or budget parts and consumables? What were his driving habits? Hard or gentle acceleration and stops? Highway or city driving? What kind of gas did he put in the tank, and did he use additives like Gumout or Marvel's Mystery Oil? How often? All of these can affect the life of a vehicle and do not show up on the dealer sticker. Buying new means you know the car's history. Whether or not that is worth the extra cost of buying new is a choice you have to make for yourself. Me? I won't buy a used car just to save a few bucks -- I'll probably buy a less expensive car instead.

Just my two cents for what they're worth.

double-checking premises

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

public transportation for him is an expensive hassle.

More expensive than upkeep and payments on another car (used or new)? And car ownership is not without its hassles, though they do tend to be a lot chunkier than with public transit. Hassle may well be a good reason to not use public transit, but it seems unlikely that "expensive" really is, when examined in context.

[corwyn-ap.livejournal.com]

Whether a prius or other hybrid is economical depends on a lot of assumptions, such as how long you intend to keep it, what the price of gas is going to do, what the price of thin film solar panels is going to do, etc.

Say you like to keep a car for 10 years, as I do. If you assume a straight line on gas prices (93.6% increase in the last ten years) the price at the end of that time will be $4.51 per gallon, or an average price of $3.42 per gallon over the whole life. Using just this past year's increase (around 20%) gives gas at $14.50 per gallon at the end of ten years.

If anyone tells you they know what gas prices are going to do, ask them how they are doing on gas futures. All numbers come from DOE, and I just used July 18ish 2005, 2004, and 1995.

[ian-gunn.livejournal.com]

Hey there,

oakleaf_mirror pointed me over here. We've met a few times. I have a 6 month old '05 Prius and I am quite happy with it overall. That said I essentially agree with goldsquare's economic argument. The payback time is too long at current gas prices to justify the price premium for the hybrids, purely in cost of ownership terms. I knew that when I decided to buy it.

I still chose to buy it because right now I'm in the fortunate position that I could afford the price premium to make a statement, about my own view on wh. The price premium was not so high that I feel I would be getting burned to bad by it and Toyota put their reputation on the line here. I expect the car will be nearly as reliable as their standard models, but we'll see. The Japanese companies are much more risk adverse, in terms of product reliability, then American companies. In part I'm relying on them to keep faith with their reputation here.

Of the available hybrids on the market I find Toyota's the better choice. Honda's "soft" hybrid does not increase the fuel economy nearly as much as Toyota's 2nd gen hybrid system, making the payback time even longer. The newer Prius's, '04 and '05 models, are also a bit bigger then a Civic or a Corolla but a bit smaller then an Accord or Camry. If cost of ownership is very important it difficult to make an apples to apples comparison with an equivalent non-hybrid.

Overall though, if cost is a major factor, you really are better off financially picking up a slightly used standard car.